This is a copy of FunkDoctorSpock's post on rock's house:
The problems that Notre Dame has encountered in 2007 are not solely related to the youth of the roster. Coach Weis and his staff made a terrible error by not having full contact practices until after the Michigan game. It is likely the most damaging error that Weis has made in his football career. When you're record is 1-7 you deserve almost all the criticism, valid or imagined, that you get.
There are, however, other factors at play. One is the schedule. Jeff Sagarin currently has it rated the 2nd most difficult schedule in the country.
Another is the lack of seniors, both on the team and in the starting lineup. For all intents and purposes this team is missing an entire class of players. Notre Dame has a total of 16 fourth and fifth year seniors. USC has 28. Boston College has 17 fifth year seniors alone.
Here is how the breakdown of starts compares between the Irish, Boston College, USC, and Penn State. Those teams are the highest ranked of ND's opponents.
I am working on getting the data for Michigan, Georgia Tech, etc. But I can tell you with the utmost confidence that those numbers will look a great deal like what I'm about the show you.
The numbers are the amount of starts that players in each class have accumulated thus far in the season:
NOTRE DAME - eight games played
Fr - 15
So - 48
Jr - 45
Sr - 21
5th- 47
SOUTHERN CAL - seven games played
Fr - 5
So - 22
Jr - 36
Sr - 39
5th- 52
BOSTON COLLEGE - seven games played
Fr - 7
So - 19
Jr - 24
Sr - 12
5th- 92
PENN STATE - eight games played
Fr - 1
So - 25
Jr - 57
Sr - 79
5th- 14
Put another way, each team has started these amounts of fourth and fifth year seniors per game:
ND - 8.5
PSU - 12.88
SC - 13
BC - 14.86
And here is the average number of starts per game for freshmen and sophomores:
ND - 7.9
PSU - 3.25
SC - 3.9
BC - 3.7
STARTS:
NOTRE DAME OFFENSIVE LINE
Fr - 0
So - 16
Jr - 16
Sr - 0
5th- 8
SOUTHERN CAL OFFENSIVE LINE
Fr - 3
So - 3
Jr - 1
Sr - 11
5th- 17
PENN STATE OFFENSIVE LINE
Fr - 1
So - o
Jr - 8
Sr - 29
5th- 2
BOSTON COLLEGE OFFENSIVE LINE
Fr - 7
So - 0
Jr - 5
Sr - 4
5th- 19
Also, at QB here is how the starts shake out:
NOTRE DAME
Fr - 6
So - 1
Jr - 1
Sr - 0
5th- 0
USC
Fr - 0
So - 0
Jr - 2
Sr - 0
5th- 5
PENN STATE
Fr - o
So - 0
Jr - 0
Sr - 8
5th- 0
BC
Fr - 0
So - 0
Jr - 0
Sr - 0
5th- 7
Thursday, October 25, 2007
Boys vs. Men
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13 comments:
Excellent! Thank you.
I guess Boston College must be doing something right. They all stay. They all graduate. They are all loyal to the school, And they are Catholic, sounds a lot like another school from the midwest. Hey ND fans jump on the BC bandwagon as we BC would be supporting ND
1. there is one typo on your list. notre dame has only 9 5th year seniors in total. where did you get the 47 from?
2. otherwise, you have hit the nail right on the head, with the exception of those hard hitting joe moore type practices.
3. they will not be an option until the 2008 class arrives and brings depth of talent at every position.
4. without that depth of talent, the injuries that go allong with those hard hitting practices simply cannot be absorbed, something which makes what charlie accomplished on the field in 2005 and 2006. with nor depth at all, even more amazing than his bringing back the notre dame recruiting network back from the dead and ending up with a solid no 1 recruiting class for 2008.
5. those who see a gap at ot have not noticed that te joe fauria has grown into a very fast and very talented 6'8"ot and that there are still other oline big talents coming in this 2008 class.
thank you for your insights,
bob gilleran
How many times are we going to blame the schedule, TW's last two recruiting seasons, academics etc., etc., etc. Nobody expected ND to be a BCS team like the past two years but the performance of this team has been downright horrible in all phases of the game. To blame the poor record on not hitting in practice is another built in excuse. The coach for Boston College came from the pros and does not hit in practice and they are # 2 in the country. Talent and good football fundementals wins football games. Also an experienced QB is is paramount in todays spread option and wide open type of game being played today.
Splitting hairs, of course, but its worth noting that J. Hoskins didn't go to a IAA - unless MAC schools are considered IAA.
Hoskin's is currently getting a ton of reps (and his share of touchdowns) for a CMU Chippewa team that is undefeated in the MAC.
Please Please Please stop making excuses. Fifth year seniors were only a part of the problem, the bigger part is coaching and regretably, Coach Weiss is just a larger version of Coach Willingham. Oh he can recruit I give him credit for that but once he gets the kids what does he do with them. I was shocked last week at the SC game, the team had absolutely no emotion. To my way of thinking it started with the pep rally, it wasn't about this group of players but all about the '77 team, great team yes but it's time we stop living in the past. At the game Coach Carrol and his staff never stopped coaching from the opening kickoff to the final play. Sorry Charlie but it shout be 3 and out for you
Good information. Would also be interesting to simply show the average age of starters for these teams and other major colleges compared to Notre Dame. Many others are also using JC transfers. I see a possible "Chris Weinke" syndrome in various other players, since some of them look like they're in their mid to late twenties. Glenn Dorsey looks like a Man! Of course the actual ages of some players may never even be known--except to their parents--due to the prevalence of lying about their age and holding them back a grade or two in grade school...
ND's strength of schedule has not received much attention this year; it should.
There is absolutely no place to hide in the beginning of the season. No patsy to gain some rythm and confidence.
Statistically, we look awful, and we are. But we are not playing tackling dummies, we are playing the best teams in the country every single week.
As much as football is a game of smash mouth, it is also a game of rythm and timing.
Weis has pooched the screw this year. But the turn-around he orchestrated in his first year and the respectable season the second year combined with his fabulous recruiting have earned him another year to prove himself.
If we are 0 and forever next year with more talent and a less than killer schedule, Weis will need a very compelling reason to stay on as the head man.
There is a huge flaw in your data. As with any new coach, many of the prior coaches players will leave the program. Those same players would be your 4th and 5th years kids right now. Looking at what ND has versus UM or USC is apples and oranges. You are better off looking at what those teams had in experience at the same point with their current coach.
The numbers are revealing, but they only tell the first part of the story. There is another layer that is even more important. At schools with consistent numbers/quality in each class, the upperclassmen who play have to beat out other upperclassmen, not just freshmen and sophomores, in order to get on the field. Thus, within each recruiting class you have a "survival of the fittest" that might filter out 10 or so weaker performers from the 20-25 players that come in.
ND's situation is different. The junior and senior classes are so light that the players who start typically aren't beating out other juniors and seniors for playing time--they're beating out freshman and sophomores. Take the offensive line, for example (a position in which experience and development is particularly important). ND has two juniors, Turkovich and Duncan, who start and play meaningful minutes. That doesn't seem that bad on paper. Lots of schools could have two juniors, a fifth-year senior (Sully), and some sophomores playing on their O-Line. But Turk and Duncan didn't have to beat out any classmates (or seniors) in order to rise to their position on the depth chart. There was no such competition. Thus, it is very plausible to conclude that they play because not because they are more talented than their peers (we have no basis for comparison, given that there are no other junior or senior OL in the class), but rather because we have no alternatives. Had there been 4 or 5 OL in each of the senior and junior classes, Duncan and Turk might not be seeing the field at all.
I point this out because the numbers, if looked at in a vacuum, don't seem THAT bad to me. But the story behind the numbers really tells how little depth and competition we have at key positions.
Gilleran if you would have read it all the way 47 is how many starts the 5 year guys have had. Not players. Also to everyone else that put the blame on Weis...if he wins you love him if he doesn't everyone points the finger at him. Do you guys think you can do better because it sounds like you think you can. And if thats the case why aren't you coaching at Notre Dame or another university?
Jerry '66 I hear you in that we probably let Weis off the hook too easy (definitely myself included) but he really hasn't had his guys in there fully developed yet.
I'm not going to re-hash the impact of having to deal with Ty's 2 horrible recruiting years but it's a critical factor you can't discount.
My question to you is: Who would you replace CW with at this point? Can you really lay out a strong case for replacing him and compromising his #1 '08 recruiting class?
I'll say it outright, we will be back on the and CW will get us there. And I believe we'll stay competitive with Weis for many years once he gets his program fully installed.
I really am sick and tired of all the empty talk. "The team is too young and inexperienced." "The team doesn't have senior leadership." "The team has no passion." "Weis can recruit, but he can't coach college kids." Blah. Blah. Blah.
The facts are that: This season is a pitiful mess. There is talent on this young team. Something is wrong.
Another fact: Weis' last two experienced, talented teams were inconsistent, and got blown away in some big games. Blown away. Maybe this was an indication ~ a warning ~ about his coaching ability. Maybe it wasn't.
Final facts: Weis probably has a couple more seasons to prove that he can coach talented, experienced players: his own. If he can, and is "NOTRE DAME SUCCESSFUL," he will probably keep his job. If he can't, he'll probably be gone. And the next coach will inherit a solid group of players.
So, let's deal with reality, folks. It's either going to get a whole lot better, or we're in for a whole lot more disappointment.
To quote Sonny & Cher: "And the beat goes on."
M.P. Slott, ND '72
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